The State of Eth2, June 2020 Ethereum Foundation Blog
The State of Eth2, June 2020 Ethereum Foundation Blog
I guess this is my WTF moment in crypto... - Market Insider
Explain Ethereum like I'm five - DEV
WTF RKT?? - Market Insider
WTF are uncles and why do they matter? : ethereum
Hey, Fuck You!
A subreddit initially designed for off-your-chest rants, now mainly for interacting with a very rude bot. Come have fun you little retard! ***** I've also found that Reddit search is based on the description. I'm going to add a *fuck* ton of tags so that all you guys find my sub! Tags; robot reddit sub crypto bitcoin cryptocurrency trump obama politics humor funny cute derp retard btc eth ethereum nano help ripple runescape 2007scape meme 4chan dank game wtf monero
I lie here in my apartment, dumplings stains on my clothes and a bit of soy sauce still at the corner of my mouth from last night's dinner. I finally crashed at 4:00 AM Pacific time and woke up at 11:00 PM. I'm still getting paid my full time salary, no work to speak of in the near future. I'm bored. In my mid-morning delirium, I stumble around Reddit with half assed political revolution comments and when things are nice and stirred up I check my Robinhood account. My investment in Dogecoin is still stagnant after that Tik Tok pump and dump. Flipping back to Reddit wondering if I should've stayed in Litecoin for all these years, I notice I've been on this app for the good part of 18 hours over the last 3 days. There's nothing to look at that's new. Then I look at my profile section and boom. Some bullshit about moons. moons. moons. moons. What is it? I don't have a clue. Do I want it? Yes. I quickly give Reddit my face ID and slam accept on a bunch of "I'll never read" privacy and disclosure agreements. Gimme the moons. I'm a pretty smart guy despite my degenerate lifestyle but even after reading through the moon picture book of explaining blockchain ethereum crypto networks I'm still sitting here with my 54 moons wondering when I'll be able to buy my Lamborghini. And then I see the thing. The thing that says this isn't convertable to money and yet I'm an owner in something. The community it says. What does that mean? I'm already a member in the community so what comes with being an owner? I still don't get it. Can someone tell me wtf moons do?? I get the whole weighted commenting/posting thing but this is a sub with minimal weight needed. I mean we're just talking about different cryptos right?? Why would I need "weight" to say hey guys I think BTC will MOON soon? It's not like we're voting on business decisions or a theme makeover. WHAT IS THIS FOR?
Community Points/MOON like tokens could serve an important role in Decentralization and Accountability
tl;dr: mods are highly centralized and not truly accountable to anyone but reddit admins, tokens should on some level be implemented for community governance to prevent abuse. Decentralization is the word, it's the main reason I'm such a big supporter of crypto and ethereum especially. I will always be in favor of pretty much any initiative that moves power out of the hands of the few and to the many. This is badly needed in a place like reddit, and Community Points could play a big role here if it's done right. Why I write this post now is this this Basically, a dude exposes that the top subreddits are HIGHLY centralized into the hands of just a few mods and is suspended from all of these communities. WTF right? As it stands right now communities here basically have to have faith that their moderators won't be garbage, and if they are the only option is to move subs. Not the best outcome, fractures the community if it works, the shit mods retains power over anyone who is numb to the garbage and stays, which will always be a lot of people. If these community points are implemented correctly, it could be arranged for mods to have some degree of accountability to their community. There would be other issues that would need to be addressed, such as the potential for centralization of tokens, but on /some/ level a layer of accountability to someone other than reddit admins can be added. Even the most basic token voting system would be 100% better than the level of accountability that exists now, and I'm sure a better system can be found. So to the skeptics I ask you to please consider the decentralization potential of this initiative, and to everyone I ask to push for communities to make use of this potential as much as possible. edit: after 3 hours being up this post went from ~12 karma suddenly down to 0 in the course of 10 minutes despite generally positive sentiment in the comments. I don't know what's going on, but it is looking like this is an idea somebody does not like
I've heard that founder of MakerDAO is not strictly against KYC. I have a message to whole community and specifically to a founder of MakerDAO Rune Christensen. I will explain using concrete examples why having KYC in MakerDAO is a grave mistake and it will lead to MakerDAO fork. Many people in the first world never actually understand why financial privacy and financial inclusion is important. Even people (in the first world) who seemingly supportive of such ideas are not able to provide any concrete examples of why it's actually important. Unfortunately, I was born in a "wrong" country (Uzbekistan) and I experienced first hand what financial exclusion actually means. I know first hand that annoying feeling when you read polite, boilerplate rejection letter from financial institution based in first world. So I had to become practical libertarian. I'm going to give you concrete examples of financial discrimination against me. Then I'm going to explain fundamental reasons why it happens. And finally, I'm going to explain my vision for DAI. Back in 2005, I lived in Uzbekistan. I had an idea to invest in US stocks. I was very naive and I didn't know anything about investing, compliance, bank transfers, KYC etc. All I knew is nice long term charts of US stocks and what P/E means. I didn't contact any US brokerage but I checked information about account opening and how to transfer money there. I approached local bank in Uzbekistan and asked how to transfer money to Bank of New York. Banker's face was like - WOW, WTF?!?! They asked me to go to private room to talk with senior manager. Senior manager of local bank in Uzbekistan asked me why I wanted to transfer money to US. They told me that it's absolutely impossible to transfer money to US/EU and pretty much anywhere. I approached nearly every local bank in the town and they told me the same. In 2012, I already lived in Moscow and acquired Russian citizenship. I got back to my old idea - investing in US stocks. I called to many US brokerages and all of them politely rejected me. Usually when I called I asked them if I can open an account with them. They told me to hold on line. After long pause, I was able to speak with "senior" support who politely explain me that Russia in their list of restricted countries and they can't open an account for me. Finally, I was able to open an account with OptionsXpress. Next challenge was to convince local Russian bank to transfer money to US. Back then in 2012, I was able to get permission to do so. So you might say - is this happy end? Fast forwarding US brokerage story to 2017, OptionsXpress was acquired by Charles Schwab. I was notified that my OptionsXpress account will be migrated to Charles Schwab platform. In 2017, I already lived in the Netherlands (but still having Russian citizenship). I wasn't happy with my stupid job in the Netherlands. I called Charles Schwab and asked if I quit my job in the Netherlands and have to return to Russia, what will happen with my account. Schwab told me that they will restrict my account, so I can't do anything except closing my account. So even if I was long term customer of OptionsXpress, Charles Schwab is not fully okay with me. Going back to 2013, I still lived in Russia. I had another idea. What if I quit my job and build some SAAS platform (or whatever) and sell my stuff to US customers. So I need some website which accept US credit cards. I contacted my Russian bank (who previously allowed me to transfer money to OptionsXpress) about steps to make in order to accept US credit cards in Russia. I've been told explicitly in email that they won't allow me to accept US credit cards under any circumstances. Back then I still believed in "the free west". So I thought - no problem, I will just open bank account abroad and do all operations from my foreign account. I planned vacation in Hong Kong. And Hong Kong is freest economy in the world. Looks like it's right place to open bank account. I contacted HSBC Hong Kong via email. Their general support assured me that I can open bank account with them if I'm foreigner. I flew to Hong Kong for vacation and visited HSBC branch. Of course, they rejected me. But they recommended me to visit last floor in their HQ building, they told me that another HSBC branch specializes on opening bank accounts for foreigners. I went there and they said minimum amount to open bank account is 10 mil HKD (1.27 mil USD). Later I learned that it's called private banking. When I relocated to the Netherlands, I asked ABN Amro staff - what's happen with my bank account if I quit/lose my job in the Netherlands and have to return back to Russia. I've been told that I can't have my dutch bank account if I go back to Russia even if I already used their bank for 2+ years. I still had idea that I would like to quit my job and do something for myself. The problem is that I'm Russian citizen and I don't have any residency which is independent from my employment. So if I quit my job in the Netherlands, I have to return back to Russia. I wanted to see how I would get payments from US/EU customers. I found Stripe Atlas, it's so exciting, they help you to incorporate in US, and even help with banking, all process of receiving credit card payments is very smooth. But as usual in my case, there is a catch - Russia in their list of restricted countries. Speaking of centralized compliance-friendly (e.g. KYC) crypto exchanges. This year I live and work in Hong Kong. Earlier this year, I thought it would be nice to have an account at local crypto exchange in Hong Kong so I can quickly transfer money from my bank account in Hong Kong to crypto exchange using FPS (local payment system for fast bank transfers). What could go wrong? After all Hong Kong is freest economy in the world, right? I submitted KYC documents to crypto exchange called Weever including copy of my Hong Kong ID as they requested. They very quickly responded that they need copy of my passport as well. I submitted copy of my Russian passport. This time they got silent. After a few days, they sent me email saying that Russia is on the US Office of Foreign Assets Control sanction list, so they just require me to fill a form about source of the funds. I told them that the source of my funds is salary, my Hong Kong bank can confirm that along with my employment contract. They got very silent after I sent them a filled form. After a week of silence I asked them - when my account get approved? They said that their compliance office will review my application soon. And they got very silent again. I waited for two or three weeks. Then I asked them again. And I immediately got email with title - Rejection for Weever Account Opening. And text of email was:
We are sorry to inform you that Weever may not be able to accept your account opening application at this stage.
Exactly the same situation I had with one crypto exchange in Europe back in 2017. Luckily I have accounts at other crypto exchanges including Gemini, one of most compliance obsessed exchange in the world. Although I don't keep my money there because I can't trust them, who knows what might come into head of their compliance officer one sunny day. By the way, I'm living and working outside of Russia for quite a few years. The situation with crypto exchanges is much worse for those who still living in Russia. I give you a few other examples of financial discrimination is not related to troubles with my Russian citizenship. Back in 2018, I still lived in the Netherlands. I logged in into my brokerage account just to buy US ETFs as I always do - SPY and QQQ. I placed my order and it failed to fill. I thought it's just a technical problem with my brokerage account. After a few failed attempts to send buy orders for SPY and QQQ, I contacted their support. What they told me was shocking and completely unexpected. They said I'm not permitted to buy US ETFs anymore as EU resident because EU passed a law to protect retail investors. So as a EU resident I'm allowed to be exposed to more risk by buying individual US stocks but I'm not allowed to reduce my risk by buying SPY because ... EU wants to protect me. I felt final result of new law. By the way, on paper their law looks fine. And the final example. It's a known fact that US public market become less attractive in recent decades. Due to heavy regulatory burden companies prefer to go public very late. So if successful unicorn startup grows from its inception/genesis to late adoption, company's valuation would be 3-5 orders of orders of magnitude. For example, if valuation of successful company at inception is 1 Mil USD, then at its very latest stage it's valuation would be 10 Bil USD. So we have 10'000 times of growth. In the best case scenario, company would go public at 1 Bil USD 5-10 years before reaching its peak 10 Bil USD. So investors in private equity could enjoy 1000 fold growth and just leave for public only last 10 fold growth stretched in time. In the worst case scenario, company would go public at 10 Bil USD, i.e. at its historical peak. But there are well known platforms to buy shares of private companies, one of such platforms is Forge Global. You can buy shares of almost all blue chip startups. You can even invest in SpaceX! But as always, there is a catch - US government wants to protect not just US citizens but all people in the world (sounds ridiculous, right?). US law requires you to have 1 Mil USD net worth or 200'000 USD annual income if you want to buy shares of non-public company. So if you are high-net worth individual you can be called "accredited investor". Funny thing is that the law intends to protect US citizens but even if you are not US citizen and never even lived in US, this law is still applies to you in practice. So if you are "poor loser", platforms like Forge Global will reject you. So high-net worth individuals have access and opportunity to Bitcoin-style multi-magnitude growth every 5-10 years. Contrary to private equity markets, US public markets is low risk/low return type of market. If you have small amount of capital, it's just glorified way to protect yourself from inflation plus some little return on top. It's not bad, US public market is a still great way to store your wealth. But I'm deeply convinced that for small capital you must seek fundamentally different type of market - high risk/high return. It's just historical luck that Bitcoin/Ethereum/etc were available for general public from day one. But in reality, viral/exponential growth is happening quite often. It's just you don't have access to such type of markets due to regulatory reasons. I intentionally described these examples of financial discrimination in full details as I experienced them because I do feel that vast majority of people in the first world honestly think that current financial system works just fine and only criminals and terrorists are banned. In reality that's not true at all. 99.999% of innocent people are completely cut off from modern financial system in the name of fighting against money laundering. Here is a big picture why it's happening. There are rich countries (so called western world) and poor countries (so called third world). Financial wall is carefully built by two sides. Authoritarian leaders of poor countries almost always want full control over their population, they don't like market economy, and since market forces don't value their crappy legal system (because it works only for close friends of authoritarian leader) they must implement strict capital control. Otherwise, all capital will run away from their country because nobody really respects their crappy legal system. It only has value under heavy gun of government. Only friends of authoritarian leader can move their money out of country but not you. Leaders of rich countries want to protect their economy from "dirty money" coming from third world. Since citizens of poor countries never vote for leaders of rich countries nobody really cares if rich country just ban everyone from poor country. It's the most lazy way to fight against money laundering - simply ban everyone from certain country. Actually if you look deeper you will see that rich countries very rarely directly ban ordinary people from third world. Usually, there is no such law which doesn't allow me to open bank account somewhere in Europe as non-EU resident. What's really happens is that US/EU government implement very harsh penalties for financial institutions if anything ever goes wrong. So what's actually happens is that financial institutions (banks, brokerages etc) do de-risking. This is the most important word you must know about traditional financial system! So if you have wrong passport, financial institution (for example) bank from rich country just doesn't want to take any risks dealing with you even if you are willing to provide full documentation about your finances. It's well known fact that banks in Hong Kong, Europe, US like to unexpectedly shutdown accounts of thousands innocent businesses due to de-risking. So it's actually de-risking is the real reason why I was rejected so many times by financial institutions in the first world!!! It's de-risking actually responsible for banning 99.999% of innocent people. So governments of rich democratic countries formally have clean hands because they are not banning ordinary people from third world directly. All dirty job is done by financial institutions but governments are well aware of that, it's just more convenient way to discriminate. And nobody actually cares! Ordinary citizens in rich countries are never exposed to such problems and they really don't care about people in third world, after all they are not citizens of US/EU/UK/CH/CA/HK/SG/JP/AU/NZ. And now are you ready for the most hilarious part? If you are big corrupt bureaucrat from Russia you are actually welcome by the first world financial institutions! All Russian's junta keep their stolen money all across Europe and even in US. You might wonder how this is possible if the western financial system is so aggressive in de-risking. Here is a simple equation which financial institution should solve when they decide whether to open an account for you or not: Y - R = net profit Where: Y - how much profit they can make with you; R - how much regulatory risk they take while working with you; That's it! It's very simple equation. So if you are really big junta member from Russia you are actually welcome according to this equation. Banks have special name for serving (ultra) high-net worth individuals, it's called private banking. It's has nothing to do with the fact that bank is private. It's just fancy name for banking for rich. So what's usually happen in real world. Some Estonian or Danish bank got caught with large scale money laundering from Russia. European leaders are ashamed in front of their voters. They implement new super harsh law against money laundering to keep their voters happy. Voters are ordinary people, they don't care about details of new regulations. So banks get scared and abruptly shutdown ALL accounts of Russian customers. And European voters are happy. Modern money laundering laws are like shooting mouse in your house using bazooka! It's very efficient to kill mouse, right? Now imagine world without financial borders. It's hard to do so because we are all get so used to current status quo of traditional financial system. But with additional effort you can start asking questions - if Internet economy is so global and it doesn't really matter where HQ of startup is located, why they are all concentrated in just a few tiny places like Silicon Valley and ... well, that's mostly it if you count the biggest unicorns! Another question would be - why so many talented russian, indian, chinese programmers just go to the same places like San Francisco, London and make super rich companies like Amazon, Google, Facebook, Apple to get even richer? If all you need is laptop and access to internet, why you don't see any trade happening between first and third world? Well actually there is a trade between first and third world but it's not exactly what I want to see. Usually third world countries sell their natural resources through giant corporations to the first world. So it's possible to get access to the first world market from third world but this access usually granted only to big and established companies (and usually it means not innovative). Unicorns are created through massive parallel experiment. Every week bunch of new startups are created in Silicon Valley. Thousands and thousands startups are created in Silicon Valley with almost instant access to global market. Just by law of large numbers you have a very few of them who later become unicorns and dominate the world. But if you have wrong passport and you are located in "wrong" country where every attempt to access global market is very costly, then you most likely not to start innovative startup in the first place. In the best case scenario, you just create either local business or just local copy-paste startup (copied from the west) oriented on (relatively small) domestic market. Obviously in such setup it's predictable that places like Silicon Valley will have giant advantage and as a result all unicorns get concentrated in just a few tiny places. In the world without financial barriers there will be much smaller gap between rich and poor countries. With low barrier of entry, it won't be a game when winner takes all. Whole architecture of decentralized cryptocurrencies is intended to remove middle man and make transactions permissionless. Governments are inherently opposite to that, they are centralized and permissioned. Therefore, decentralized cryptocurrencies are fundamentally incompatible with traditional financial system which is full of middle mans and regulations (i.e. permissions). Real value of crypto are coming from third world, not the first world. People are buying crypto in rich countries just want to invest. Their financial system and their fiat money are more or less already working for them. So there is no immediate urgency to get rid of fiat money in the first world. So the first world citizens buying crypto on centralized KYCd exchanges are essentially making side bet on the success of crypto in third world. Real and natural environment of cryptocurrencies is actually dark OTC market in places like Venezuela and China. But cryptocurrencies like Bitcoin and Ethereum have a big limitation to wide adoption in third world - high volatility. So the real target audience is oppressed (both by their own government and by first world governments) ordinary citizens of third world countries yet they are least who can afford to take burden of high volatility. Right now, Tether is a big thing for dark markets across the world (by the way, dark market doesn't automatically imply bad!). But Tether soon or later be smashed by US/EU regulators. The only real and working permissionless stable cryptocurrency (avoiding hyped word - stablecoin) is DAI. DAI is the currency for post-Tether world to lead dark OTC market around the world and subvert fiat currencies of oppressive third world governments. Once DAI become de-facto widespread currency in shadow economy in all of third world, then it will be accepted (after many huge push backs from governments) as a new reality. I'm talking about 10-20+ years time horizon. But if MakerDAO chooses the route of being compliance friendly then DAI will lose its real target audience (i.e. third world). I can not imagine US/EU calmly tolerate someone buying US stocks and using as a collateral to issue another security (i.e. DAI) which is going to be traded somewhere in Venezuela! You can not be compliance friendly and serve people in Venezuela. Facebook's Libra was stupidest thing I've seen. It's extremely stupid to ask permission from the first world regulators to serve third world and create borderless economy. Another stupid thing is to please third world governments as well. For example, Libra (if ever run) will not serve Indian, Chinese, Venezuelan people. Who is then going to use stupid Libra? Hipsters in Silicon Valley? Why? US dollars are good enough already.
Nuo Network was grossly negligent and caused me financial harm
TL:DR: My fixed term loan with Nuo was liquidated. When I signed up for the loan, it was not disclosed anywhere that this was possible. My two key pieces of evidence are this screenshot where Nuo admits to only adding the disclosure after I took out my loan, and this comment from me that shows this information was more than likely not listed anywhere on the website at the time of the loan. I was blindsided by the fact my loan was liquidated, resulting in financial harm to myself. I allege that Nuo acted grossly negligent by not disclosing these risks, not just inadequately, like not even buried in their terms of service. Full story: Excuse this post if my tone comes off as enraged. It's because I am. I know I share some responsibility in what happened here, ranging from 100% to 0%. I'll let you decide how much. The story goes is that I had used Nuo to take out a loan against an ERC20 they accept as collateral. I had done this months ago as well, took out a 60 day loan, and paid it back on day 59, with interest. I took out a term loan and borrowed against my own assets, and repaid it. Cool! DeFi! I love it. I then immediately took out another loan against the same collateral, this time however they didn't let me borrow as much as they did before despite the collateral being worth the same. They maximized the size of the loans either based on risk management or liquidity pool size, that's fine. I borrow less than I did before and locked it up for another 60 days. That was about 6 weeks ago. A couple days ago I go and check on my loan to double check how much time I have left to pay to be sure not to miss it. I login and I am shocked at what I saw. All of my loans have been liquidated!!! WTF? I didn't even know it was possible for these fixed term loans to be liquidated. I thought the entire point of Nuo choosing the collateral, the leverage ratio, the total amount borrowed, the limited term window etc. all served to minimize the risk for Nuo to be able to issue a fixed term loan in the first place! I was under the impression that unlike a revolving open loan like Maker and Compound where obviously the value of your collateral matters at all times, it wouldn't matter in a fixed loan, and they had sufficiently adjusted the parameters to adjust for the risk of the collateral being devalued over that time period. If they're so worried about it not making it the 60 days, which I would understand, limit the term! Choose 30 days or 7 days or 1 day where you're confident that the collateral won't be devalued. Why have a fixed term loan in the first place if you won't honor the loan to the term! If I take out a car loan for 5 years and the car is used as collateral and I completely destroy it, I still owe the $ for the car loan! You give me a chance to repay before you put a lien on my house. I thought I had an agreement! That agreement was to repay a debt after a certain amount of time or they will keep my collateral. I was completely blindsided by this function of the loan I had no idea existed. How could this have happened? So I poke around and check the loan tab in the screen and I see a prominent "Your loan will be liquidated at 0.75x ratio". I had never seen that before. If I had, I might not have ever taken out the loan, let alone not checked up on it during this downturn! Having knowledge of this fact would have completely changed my behaviour and given me a chance to avoid being liquidated. I could have sworn that this was never disclosed to me at the time of taking out the loan. I try and reach out to the team and after a couple days finally get a meaningful response from them. I express my concern that the risk of liquidation was not adequately disclosed, and they say that they added copy of the disclosure on the loan page "a month or so ago". I took out my loan more than a month or so ago!!! Where does that leave me? I feel I have been totally taken advantage of in regards to what my impressions of the risks were as I took out the loan. I feel completely misled. In writing this post I stumbled across more proof that Nuo was lacking not only adequate disclosures of risk, but any disclosures! I found a reddit post from me from 3 months ago seeking clarity on this exact issue! Check out my 2 comments. The ultimate irony being that it was in a thread that was calling Nuo a scam! And even worse, responding to a comment where a Nuo team member made a plea about how they will be better about disclosing risks! You can't make this up. My post shows I was trying to reach out across multiple channels to answer this question and was ignored, and that if I'm asking this question, clearly the disclosure was not mentioned during the loan flow, but I also reference it was nowhere on the website at all as the only relevant question in the FAQ was a dead link! Between Nuo admitting they added the disclosure 'a month or so ago', and the fact I tried multiple channels to ask this exact question only to be ignored, with an explicit timestamped mention of the FAQ not working, I feel strongly that Nuo acted with gross negligence when offering this loan. I realize that I should probably have never taken out the loan I wasn't 100% sure how it worked. That's my mistake. I also could have personally looked through the smart contracts and seen the mechanics there, but truthfully I lack the technical knowledge to meaningfully do so. What I can say is that I am very familiar with the theory and practicalities of how Ethereum and DeFi work. I can tell you the Maker oracle system and how it works and what an oracle attack would look like. I know smart contract bugs are real and it could all be stolen in a flash. I'm aware of risk mitigating options like Nexus Mutual. I literally spend nearly all my free time learning about Ethereum and new applications. So how is it possible that whatever category I fall into, 'passionate early adopter' that I could have been so blindsided by the risks inherent with this loan? If I, someone with a decent level of knowledge of how these systems work can be so blindsided, what chance do normal users have? MEW, Mycrypto, Maker CDPs all make it extremely clear what the risks are when interacting with the system. UX is so bad they have bent over backwards to create mandatory click throughs, pop ups, highlighted text, etc. That's being responsible. I even reference the clarity of liquidation in Maker CDPs in my linked comment! Not only was this never prominently displayed in the loan process with Nuo, it wasn't displayed at all, anywhere! I am just in shock at the negligence of the lack of disclosures of this significant risk. I have incurred significant financial harm as a result of this negligence through refinancing costs and repurchase of the tokens. I want compensation for the financial loss I have incurred as a result of this. I feel that Nuo's admitted lack of disclosures was negligent and has caused me direct financial harm. Whatever happens with my claim to recoup losses from Nuo. I want to let the community be aware of what they are doing in case you are also under the same impression that I was. I also want to reiterate and implore the community and dapp developers to ADEQUATELY DISCLOSE THE RISKS of using your platform. Nobody should ever be blindsided like I was. I can tell you it is an absolutely shitty UX and I'm really pissed, and you won't find someone more pro Ethereum and DeFi than me! Perhaps I would be better off using a centralized service so I have some legal recourse in regards to this. I might have some legal recourse here but I don't want to be a lawsuit guy, I want to be a guy who uses an app who actually tells you under what conditions you could incur serious financial losses. Fwiw I think it's bs that Nuo or any crypto company dodges liability and hides behind smart contracts and decentralization to not taking responsibility when a member of the community gets misled. I don't care if you're a DAO, you still are a group providing a service! In conclusion, Nuo was grossly negligent about disclosing key risks, and it has cost me untold amounts on money.
TL:DR: Nuo Network was grossly negligent in not disclosing the risks of fixed term loans being liquidated. Excuse this post if my tone comes off as enraged. It's because I am. I know I share some responsibility in what happened here, ranging from 100% to 0%. I'll let you decide how much. The story goes is that I had used Nuo to take out a loan against an ERC20 they accept as collateral. I had done this months ago as well, took out a 60 day loan, and paid it back on day 59, with interest. I took out a term loan and borrowed against my own assets, and repaid it. Cool! DeFi! I love it. I then immediately took out another loan against the same collateral, this time however they didn't let me borrow as much as they did before despite the collateral being worth the same. They maximized the size of the loans either based on risk management or liquidity pool size, that's fine. I borrow less than I did before and locked it up for another 60 days. That was about 6 weeks ago. A couple days ago I go and check on my loan to double check how much time I have left to pay to be sure not to miss it. I login and I am shocked at what I saw. All of my loans have been liquidated!!! WTF? I didn't even know it was possible for these fixed term loans to be liquidated. I thought the entire point of Nuo choosing the collateral, the leverage ratio, the total amount borrowed, the limited term window etc. all served to minimize the risk for Nuo to be able to issue a fixed term loan in the first place! I was under the impression that unlike a revolving open loan like Maker and Compound where obviously the value of your collateral matters at all times, it wouldn't matter in a fixed loan, and they had sufficiently adjusted the parameters to adjust for the risk of the collateral being devalued over that time period. If they're so worried about it not making it the 60 days, which I would understand, limit the term! Choose 30 days or 7 days or 1 day where you're confident that the collateral won't be devalued. Why have a fixed term loan in the first place if you won't honor the loan to the term! If I take out a car loan for 5 years and the car is used as collateral and I completely destroy it, I still owe the $ for the car loan! You give me a chance to repay before you put a lien on my house. I thought I had an agreement! That agreement was to repay a debt after a certain amount of time or they will keep my collateral. I was completely blindsided by this function of the loan I had no idea existed. How could this have happened? So I poke around and check the loan tab in the screen and I see a prominent "Your loan will be liquidated at 0.75x ratio". I had never seen that before. If I had, I might not have ever taken out the loan, let alone not checked up on it during this downturn! Having knowledge of this fact would have completely changed my behaviour and given me a chance to avoid being liquidated. I could have sworn that this was never disclosed to me at the time of taking out the loan. I try and reach out to the team and after a couple days finally get a meaningful response from them. I express my concern that the risk of liquidation was not adequately disclosed, and they say that they added copy of the disclosure on the loan page "a month or so ago". I took out my loan more than a month or so ago!!! Where does that leave me? I feel I have been totally taken advantage of in regards to what my impressions of the risks were as I took out the loan. I feel completely misled. In writing this post I stumbled across more proof that Nuo was lacking not only adequate disclosures of risk, but any disclosures! I found a reddit post from me from 3 months ago seeking clarity on this exact issue! Check out my 2 comments. The ultimate irony being that it was in a thread that was calling Nuo a scam! And even worse, responding to a comment where a Nuo team member made a plea about how they will be better about disclosing risks! You can't make this up. My post shows I was trying to reach out across multiple channels to answer this question and was ignored, and that if I'm asking this question, clearly the disclosure was not mentioned during the loan flow, but I also reference it was nowhere on the website at all as the only relevant question in the FAQ was a dead link! Between Nuo admitting they added the disclosure 'a month or so ago', and the fact I tried multiple channels to ask this exact question only to be ignored, with an explicit timestamped mention of the FAQ not working, I feel strongly that Nuo acted with gross negligence when offering this loan. I realize that I should probably have never taken out the loan I wasn't 100% sure how it worked. That's my mistake. I also could have personally looked through the smart contracts and seen the mechanics there, but truthfully I lack the technical knowledge to meaningfully do so. What I can say is that I am very familiar with the theory and practicalities of how Ethereum and DeFi work. I can tell you the Maker oracle system and how it works and what an oracle attack would look like. I know smart contract bugs are real and it could all be stolen in a flash. I'm aware of risk mitigating options like Nexus Mutual. I literally spend nearly all my free time learning about Ethereum and new applications. So how is it possible that whatever category I fall into, 'passionate early adopter' that I could have been so blindsided by the risks inherent with this loan? If I, someone with a decent level of knowledge of how these systems work can be so blindsided, what chance do normal users have? MEW, Mycrypto, Maker CDPs all make it extremely clear what the risks are when interacting with the system. UX is so bad they have bent over backwards to create mandatory click throughs, pop ups, highlighted text, etc. That's being responsible. I even reference the clarity of liquidation in Maker CDPs in my linked comment! Not only was this never prominently displayed in the loan process with Nuo, it wasn't displayed at all, anywhere! I am just in shock at the negligence of the lack of disclosures of this significant risk. I have incurred significant financial harm as a result of this negligence through refinancing costs and repurchase of the tokens. I want compensation for the financial loss I have incurred as a result of this. I feel that Nuo's admitted lack of disclosures was negligent and has caused me direct financial harm. Whatever happens with my claim to recoup losses from Nuo. I want to let the community be aware of what they are doing in case you are also under the same impression that I was. I also want to reiterate and implore the community and dapp developers to ADEQUATELY DISCLOSE THE RISKS of using your platform. Nobody should ever be blindsided like I was. I can tell you it is an absolutely shitty UX and I'm really pissed, and you won't find someone more pro Ethereum and DeFi than me! Perhaps I would be better off using a centralized service so I have some legal recourse in regards to this. I might have some legal recourse here but I don't want to be a lawsuit guy, I want to be a guy who uses an app who actually tells you under what conditions you could incur serious financial losses. Fwiw I think it's bs that Nuo or any crypto company dodges liability and hides behind smart contracts and decentralization to not taking responsibility when a member of the community gets misled. I don't care if you're a DAO, you still are a group providing a service! In conclusion, Nuo was grossly negligent about disclosing key risks, and it has cost me untold amounts on money.
A late Valentine's Day gift, I guess! [Winner's Thread #39]
I don’t know what to say quite honestly, I was minding my own business on a Sunday evening when I saw I had a message on reddit. When I saw the “congratulations to lolsokje” I let out my biggest “WTF” ever (and in my excitement I forgot to actually reply to the drawing thread, oops), and I'm pretty sure I almost woke up my parents, whom I'm staying at for the weekend. It's still kinda surreal I actually won one of these! Anyway, some more details about me; I’m a 23-year old Dutchman currently living in Belgium. I started my first ever full time job as a web developer September last year, after finally getting my Bachelor’s degree after 6 years and 2 earlier studies I dropped out off. My main interests are Formula 1, the NBA (currently watching the All Star game while typing this up at 3am), playing guitar and occasionally gaming as well. I also like making websites in my free time, but as that's my job as well it's less of a hobby. During the 6 years to get my degree I racked up quite some student debt (more than is usual here), and I also had to borrow some money from my grandparents, so that’ll be the main target for any money kindly donated! In case anyone wants something in return, we've got a cute as fuck dog I can post pictures of if anyone's interested :D Edit: Dog pictures! Everything listed should result in direct lines of payment to lolsokje. We ask all users to donate at least $1 USD.
What is it? A non contentious hard fork to improve Ethereum. This is better described as a network upgrade, than a hard fork. When is it? Block number 7,080,000. 13 and a bit days from now. Countdown. - Thanks juxtaposezen Who is doing it? Everyone. This is a non contentious fork, meaning that nerds on Twitter and Reddit aren't fighting about it. Do I get double ETH for FREE? Technically yes. But the old ETH will be worthless, and the new ETH will assume the value that the old ETH had. ELI5: No. My ETH is on an exchange, what do I need to do? Nothing! My ETH is in a MEW, Mycrypto, Coinbase Wallet, Jaxx, paper wallet etc. What do I need to do? Nothing! My ETH is on a hardware wallet what do I need to do? Nothing! I got contacted by someone asking for my private key to upgrade my ETH or whatever? It's a TRAP! See above. I was contacted by someone with a link to go claim my fork ETH, should I do that? This is a scam! I run a node what do I need to do? Update it! But if you don't, you won't lose your ETH or anything so don't stress too much. I mine, what do I need to do? Make sure your miner is pointed at the new chain. Is this going to increase the price? Maybe? Is this POS? Nope. What's this even all about? This hard fork is adding the following EIPs. Most notably, this hard fork reduces issuance of ETH by 33% from 3 ETH per block to 2 ETH per block, as well as a few other neat upgrades. You can read about them below. EIP 145, EIP 1014, EIP 1052, EIP 1283, EIP 1234. WTF is a Constantinople anyways? Constantinople was the capital city of the Roman/Byzantine Empire (330–1204 and 1261–1453), and also of the brief Crusader state known as the Latin Empire (1204–1261), until finally falling to the Ottoman (1453–1923) empire. It was reinaugurated in 324 from ancient Byzantium as the new capital of the Roman Empire by Emperor Constantine the Great, after whom it was named, and dedicated on 11 May 330. The city was largely located in what is now the European side and the core of modern Istanbul.
**Last updated: May 30, 2018: Updated wallet info with release of Trinity. This 4 part series from the IOTA foundation covers most of the technical FUD centered at IOTA. https://blog.iota.org/official-iota-foundation-response-to-the-digital-currency-initiative-at-the-mit-media-lab-part-1-72434583a2 Also the official IOTA faq on iota.org answers nearly all of these questions if you want to hear the answers directly. Purpose of Writing Since posting FUD is so ridiculously low-effort in comparison to setting the record straight, I felt it necessary to put a log of copy-pastas together to balance the scales so its just as easy to answer the FUD as it was to generate it. So next time you hear someone say "IOTA is centralized", you no longer have to take an hour out of your day and spin your wheels with someone who likely had an agenda to begin with. You just copy-paste away and move on. It's also worth mentioning IOTA devs are too damn busy working on the protocol and doing their job to answer FUD. So I felt a semblance of responsibility. Here they are. These answers are too my understanding so if you see something that doesn't look right let me know! They are divided into the following categories so if you are interested in a specific aspect of IOTA you can scroll to that section. 1) WALLET 2) COMMUNITY 3) INVESTING 4) TECHNICAL
IOTA was hacked and users funds were stolen!
First, IOTA was not hacked. The term “hacked” is thrown around way too brazingly nowadays and often used to describe events that weren’t hacks to begin with. Its a symptom of this space growing way too fast creating situations of the blind leading the blind and causing hysteria. What happened: Many IOTA users trusted a certain 3rd party website to create their seed for their wallets. This website silently sent copies of all the seeds generated to an email address and waited till it felt it had enough funds, then it took everyones money simultaneously. That was the ”hack”. https://blog.iota.org/the-secret-to-security-is-secrecy-d32b5b7f25ef The lesson: The absolute #1 marketed feature of crypto is that you are your own bank. Of everything that is common knowledge about crypto, this is at the top. But being your own bank means you are responsible for the security of your own funds. There is no safety net or centralized system in place that is going to bail you out. For those that don’t know (and you really should if you’ve invested in anything crypto), your seed is your username-pw-security question-backup email all rolled into one. Would you trust a no-name 3rd party website to produce your username+pw for your bank account? Because thats essentially what users did. The fix: Make your seed offline with the generators in the sidebar or use dice. This is outlined in the “how to generate wallet and seed” directly following. The trinity and carriota wallets will have seed generators within them upon their release.
How to generate wallet and seed
1) Download official trinity wallet here 2) follow the instructions on the app. 3) Do not run any apps in conjunction with the trinity app. Make sure all other apps are completely closed out on your device.
Are you sure a computer can’t just guess my seed?
An IOTA seed is 81 characters long. There are more IOTA seed combinations than atoms in the universe. All the computers in the world combined would take millions billions of years just to find your randomly generated one that’s located somewhere between the 0th and the 2781st combination. The chance for someone to randomly generate the exact same seed as yours is 1 / (2781). If you can’t fathom the number 27 ^ 81, this video should help: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p8YIdmwcubc
Download Bolero and run! Bolero is an all-in-one full node install package with the latest IOTA IRI and Nelson all under a one-click install! https://github.com/SemkoDev/bolero.fun/releases "If you want to help the network then spam the network. If you really want to help the network then create a full node and let others spam you!"
No questions or concerns get upvoted, only downvoted!
That’s just the nature of this business. Everyone in these communities has money at stake and are extremely incentivized to keep only positive news at the top of the front page. There is nothing you're going to do about that on this subreddit or any crypto subreddit. It's just a reddit fact of life we have to deal with. Everyone has a downvote and everyone has an upvote. But what can be done is just simply answer the questions even if they are downvoted to hell. Yea most people wont' see the answers or discussion but that one person will. every little bit counts. I will say that there are most certainly answers to nearly every FUD topic out there. Every single one. A lot of the posts I'm seeing as of late especially since the price spike are rehashed from months ago. They are often not answered not because there isn't an answeexplanation, but because regulars who have the answers simply don't see them (for the reason listed above). I can see how it's easy for this to be interpreted (especially by new users) as there not being an answer or "the FUDsters are on to something" but thats just not the case.
IOTA Devs do not respond appropriately to criticism
When critiquers provide feedback that is ACTUALLY useful to the devs, then sure they'll be glad to hear it. So far not once has an outside dev brought up something that the IOTA devs found useful. Every single time it ends up being something that was already taken into consideration with the design and if the critiquer did an ounce of research they would know that. Thus you often find the IOTA devs dismissing their opinion as FUD and responding with hostility because all their critique is really doing is sending the message to their supporters that they are not supposed to like IOTA anymore. Nick Johnson was a perfect example of this. The Ethereum community was co-existing [peacefully]with IOTA’s community (as they do with nearly all alt coins) until Nick wrote his infamous article. Then almost overnight Ethereum decided it didn’t like IOTA anymore and we’ve been dealing with that shit since. As of today, add LTC to that list with Charlie’s (even admitting) ignorant judgement of IOTA. 12/17/2017: Add John McAfee (bitcoin cash) and Peter Todd (bitcoin) to the list of public figures who have posted ignorantly on IOTA.
A lot of crypto communities certainly like to hate on IOTA...
IOTA is disrupting the disrupters. It invented a completely new distributed ledger infrastructure (the tangle) that replaces the blockchain and solves all of its fundamental problems (namely fees and scaling). To give you an idea of this significance, 99% of the cryptocurrencies that exist are built on a block chain. These projects have billions of dollars invested into them meaning everyone in their communities are incentivized to see IOTA fail and spread as much FUD about it as possible. This includes well known organizations, public figures, and brands. Everyone commenting in these subreddits and crypto communities have their own personal money at stake and skin in the game. Misinformation campaigns, paid reddit posters, upvote/downvote bots, and corrupt moderators are all very real in this space.
All IOTAs that will ever exist were sold at the ICO in 2015. There was no % reserved for development. Devs had to buy in with their personal money. Community donated back 5% of all IOTA so the IOTA foundation could be setup.
No inflation schedule? No additional coins? How is this sustainable?
Interestingly enough, IOTA is actually the only crypto that does not run into any problems with a currency cap and deflationaryism. Because there are zero fees, you will always be able to pay for something for exactly what it's worth using IOTA, no matter how small the value. If by chance in the future a single iota grows so large in value that it no longer allows someone to pay for something in fractions of a penny, the foundation would just add decimal points allowing for a tenth or a hundreth or a thousandth of an iota to be transacted with. To give you some perspective, if a single IOTA equals 1 penny, IOTA would have a 27 trillion dollar market cap (100x that of Bitcoin's today)
IOTA is not for P2P, only for M2M
With the release of the trinity wallet, it's now dead simple for anyone to use IOTA funds for P2P. Try it out.
Companies technically don’t have to use the IOTA token
Yes they do Worth clarifying that 0 iota data transactions are perfectly fine and are welcomed since they still provide pow for 2 other transactions and help secure the network. In the early stages, these types of transactions will probably be what give us the tps/pow needed to remove the coordinator and allow the network defend 34% attacks organically. But... if someone does not want to sell or exchange their data for free (0 IOTA transaction), then Dominic is saying that the IOTA token must be used for that or any exchange in value on the network. This is inherently healthy for the ecosystem since it provides a neutral and non-profit middle ground that all parties/companies can trust. If one company made their own token it wouldn’t be trusted since companies are incentivized by profits and nothing is stopping them from manipulating their token to make them more money. Thus, the IOTA foundation will not partner with anyone who refuses to take this option off the table.
All these companies are going to influence IOTA development!!
These companies have no influence on the development of IOTA. They either choose to use it or they don’t.
Internet of things is cheap and will stay cheap
Internet of things is one application of IOTA and considered by many to be the 4th industrial revolution. Go do some googling. IOTA having zero fees enables M2M for the first time in history. Also, if a crypto can do M2M it sure as shit can do M2P and P2P. M2M is hard mode.
Investing in a project in its early stages was something typically reserved for wealthy individuals/organizations before ICO’s became a thing. With early investing comes much less hand holding and more responsibility on the user to know what they are doing. If you have a hard time accepting this responsibility, don’t invest and wait for the technology to get easier for you. How many people actually knew how to use and mine bitcoin in 2009 before it had all its gui infrastructure? IOTA is a tangle, the first of its kind. NOT a copy paste blockchain. As a result wallets and applications for IOTA are the first of their kind and translating the tangle into a nice clean user-friendly blockchain experience for the masses is even more taxing.
Why is the price of my coin falling?!
This may be the most asked question on any crypto subreddit but it's also the easiest to explain. The price typically falls when bad things happen to a coin or media fabricates bad news about a coin and a portion of investors take it seriously. The price increases when good things happen to a coin, such as a new exchange listing or a partnership announced etc.. The one piece that is often forgotten but trumps all these effects is something called "market forces". Market forces is what happens to your coin when another coin gets a big news hit or a group of other coins get big news hits together. For example, when IOTA data marketplace released, IOTA hit a x5 bull run in a single week. But did you notice all the other alt coins in the red? There are a LOT of traders that are looking at the space as a whole and looking to get in on ANY bull action and will sell their other coins to do so. This effect can also be compounded over a long period of time such as what we witnessed when the bitcoin fork FOMO was going on and alt coins were squeezed continuously to feed it for weeks/months. These examples really just scratch the surface of market forces but the big takeaway is that your coin or any coin will most certainly fall (or rise) in price at the result of what other coins are doing, with the most well known example being bitcoin’s correlation to every coin on the market. If you don't want to play the market-force game or don't have time for it, then you can never go wrong buying and holding. It's also important to note that there are layers of investors. There's a top layer of light-stepping investors that are a mixture of day traders and gamblers trying to jump in and jump out to make quick money then look for the next buying (or shorting) opportunity at another coin. There's a middle layer of buyers and holders who did their research, believe in the tech and placing their bets it will win out in the long run. And the bottom layer are the founders and devs that are in it till the bitter end and there to see the vision realized. When a coin goes on a bull run, always expect that any day the top layer is going to pack up and leave to the next coin. But the long game is all about that middle layer. That is the layer that will be giving the bear markets their price-drop resistance. That is why the meme "HODL" is so effective because it very elegantly simplifies this whole concept for the common joe and makes them a part of that middle layer regardless if they understand whats going on or not.
How is IOTA free and how does it scale
IOTA is an altruistic system. Proof of work is done in IOTA just like bitcoin. Only a user’s device/phone must do pow for 2 other transactions before issuing one of its own. Therefore no miners and no fees. And the network becomes faster the more transactions are posted. Because of this, spamming the network is encouraged since they provide pow for 2 other transactions and speed up the network.
IOTA is centralized
IOTA is more decentralized than any blockchain crypto that relies on 5 pools of miners, all largely based in China. Furthermore, the coordinator is not a server in the dev’s basement that secretly processes all the transactions. It’s several nodes all around the globe that add milestone transactions to show the direction of the IF’s tangle within the DAG so people don’t accidentally follow a fork from a malicious actor. Anyone with the know-how can fork the tangle right now with a double-spend. But no one would follow their fork because the coordinator reveals which tangle is the legit IF one. If the coordinator wasn’t there (assuming low honest-transaction volume), there would be no way to discern which path to follow especially after the tangle diverges into forks of forks. Once throughout of honest transactions is significant enough, the “honest tangle” will replace the coordinated one and people will know which one to follow simply because it’s the biggest one in the room. Referencing the coordinator is also optional. Also, if you research and understand how IOTA intends to work without the coordinator, it’s easier to accept it for now as training wheels. I suggest reading pg 15 and on of the white paper analyzing in great depth how the network will defend different attack scenarios without a coordinator. For the past several months, IOTA foundation has been using St Petersburg college’s super computer to stress test IOTA and learn when they can turn the coordinator off. There will likely be a blog about the results soon. This is another great read covering double spends on IOTA without a coordinator: www.tangleblog.com/2017/07/10/is-double-spending-possible-with-iota/ This too: http://www.reddit.com/Iota/comments/7eix4a/any_iota_guru_that_can_explain_what_this_guy_is/dq5ijrm Also this correspondence with Vitalik and Come_from_Beyond https://twitter.com/DavidSonstebo/status/932510087301779456 At the end of the day, outstanding claims require outstanding evidence and folks approaching IOTA with a “I’ll believe it when I see it” attitude is completely understandable. It’s all about your risk tolerance.
Masked authenticated messages exist right now so data can be transferred privately. Very important for businesses.
Centralized coin mixer is out that foundation runs. Logs are kept so they can collect data and improve it Folks can copy the coin mixer code and run it themselves. Goal is for mixer to be decentralized and ran by any node.
How do nodes scale? How on earth can all that data be stored?
Full nodes store, update and verify from the last snapshot, which happens roughly every month. Its on the roadmap to make snapshotting automatic and up to each full node’s discretion.With automatic snapshots, each full node will act as a partial perma-node and choose when to snapshot its tangle data. If someone wants to keep their tangle data for several months or even years, they could just choose not to snapshot. Or if they are limited on hard drive space, they could snapshot every week. Perma-nodes would store the entire history of the tangle from the genesis. These are optional and would likely only be created by companies who wish to sell historical access of the tangle as a service or companies who heavily use the tangle for their own data and want to have quick, convenient access to their data’s history. Swarm nodes are also in development which will ease the burden on full nodes. https://blog.iota.org/iota-development-roadmap-74741f37ed01
Newbs might not know this, but bitcoin recently came out of an intense internal drama. Between July 2015 and August 2017 bitcoin was attacked by external forces who were hoping to destroy the very properties that made bitcoin valuable in the first place. This culminated in the creation of segwit and the UASF (user activated soft fork) movement. The UASF was successful, segwit was added to bitcoin and with that the anti-decentralization side left bitcoin altogether and created their own altcoin called bcash. Bitcoin's price was $2500, soon after segwit was activated the price doubled to $5000 and continued rising until a top of $20000 before correcting to where we are today. During this drama, I took time away from writing open source code to help educate and argue on reddit, twitter and other social media. I came up with a reading list for quickly copypasting things. It may be interesting today for newbs or anyone who wants a history lesson on what exactly happened during those two years when bitcoin's very existence as a decentralized low-trust currency was questioned. Now the fight has essentially been won, I try not to comment on reddit that much anymore. There's nothing left to do except wait for Lightning and similar tech to become mature (or better yet, help code it and test it) In this thread you can learn about block sizes, latency, decentralization, segwit, ASICBOOST, lightning network and all the other issues that were debated endlessly for over two years. So when someone tries to get you to invest in bcash, remind them of the time they supported Bitcoin Unlimited. For more threads like this see UASF
Selling my moons I got for upvotes on an internet forum that I mainly use whilst taking a dump for over $1000. Messed up thing is, this will probably age like milk and they'll be worth insane amounts more in 5 years. Still, getting paid for going to the toilet seems pretty nice after 2020. Cheers everyone. submitted by /u/jpreddit200 [link] [comments] Ethereum goes further, here you can basically write small "self-executing" programs that can't be deleted. So with our book analogy, you could write into the book "I bet 1 ETH with Amy that the weather on May the 2nd is sunny and nice", and include a data link to Google Weather or similar which the program can check. Before you go, check out these stories! 0. Start Writing Help; About; Start Writing; Sponsor: Brand-as-Author; Sitewide Billboard 1 week WTF RKT?? Reddit . Hello friends, I was doing research almost 2 years ago and upon doing research on promising stocks to get for going into 2021 and on the short list it was between RKT and DAL…analysts were creaming over them and their pricing was affordable to get a … Delta Air Lines (DAL) · Stocks r/ethereum: Next-generation platform for decentralised applications. Press J to jump to the feed. Press question mark to learn the rest of the keyboard shortcuts
Why I Just Bought MORE Bitcoin & Ethereum Cryptocurrency ...
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